pim
Full Member
It's still Bertrand Russell's atheist teapot!!
Posts: 180
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Post by pim on Nov 16, 2012 15:14:47 GMT 11
And I'm not disputing the need for a royal commission, Geopol. In fact I enthusiastically support it. Neither am I arguing about what you say regarding the denials and the deception and the self-serving bullshit that Pell demonstrated when he fronted the media. But what I maintain is that the stuff about the "seal of the confession" is a distraction. Let me be partisan just for a moment: remember after Gillard's "misogyny" speech when the Liberals - especially Pyne and Julia Bishop - pulled a couple of stunts in the House in an attempt to trivialise the sexism/misogyny issue? For example when a Liberal backbencher asked Swan a question (or was it Gillard?) about electricity prices and offered to table the data he was basing his question on, Albanese - as Leader of the House who says yes or no to Opposition attempts to table documents - said something like "Yeah OK, he's a good bloke so let him table what he's got". It wasn't hostile or combative. A little flippant but not over-the-top. It injected a bit of levity into a pretty tense atmosphere in parliament which was welcome. Up popped Pyne waxing hysterical and demanding that Madam Speaker rule the term "bloke" unparliamentary, sexist and out-of-order. The Speaker sat Pyne down and told him to STFU, but not before Pyne had wasted minutes of the House's time haggling over this frivolour point of order. That's Pyne for you. So when Christopher Pyne starts grandstanding, coming the heavy and waxing hysterical over a priestly conspiracy of paedophiles protected by the "seal of the confessional" I get suspicious. What's Pyne really trying on here? Another distraction? An attempt to derail and trivialise another issue? He is a Catholic.
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Post by geopol on Nov 17, 2012 6:53:43 GMT 11
I do not at al see the connective narrative that you seem to. I am beginning to suspect you yourself may be simply drifting into the realms of sophstry yourself. Quite charming to read but, for me at least, not finding much intellectual grippage beyond that. I am an atheist too which may have some impact on my attitude to the catholic church, its rites and its privileges, some of which I find out of step in a modern secular society that is having to come to grips with some awful demons, many of which the church has been incapable of or unwillng to deal with itself...
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Post by zombie on Nov 17, 2012 8:10:57 GMT 11
The rhetoric and actions of the Catholic Church are at odds.
On one hand they are saying they support a Royal commission and on the other are supporting with legal fees pedophile priest who should be jailed.
Would look better for the church to deal with its pedophile child abuse problem rather than stalling, dragging and kicking all the way to justice.
The sanctity or seal of the confession is just sanctimonious waffle, no priest or person is above the law of the land.
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pim
Full Member
It's still Bertrand Russell's atheist teapot!!
Posts: 180
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Post by pim on Nov 17, 2012 9:27:10 GMT 11
Waffle to you, sacred to priests. Including priests who are sincere, genuine, take their vows seriously and have never abused a child. Such a priest, if forced to choose between his obligation to "Caesar" and his obligation to "God" is going to choose "God". It matters not one iota what an atheist thinks about that. Pour all the scorn and obloquy you like. It also matters not one iota what I personally might thing. What I'm talking about is the genuine sincere priest of good will and holiness who takes his vows seriously and has never abused a child.
So if "Caesar" enacts mandatory reporting of what is said in confession, if the priest then holds that up against Mark 12:17 (Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's), makes a considered and principled choice - guided by his conscience and informed by prayer - that he has to choose "God" over "Caesar", finds himself in court on a contempt of court charge having told the court "I cannot in all conscience break my vows as a priest" and does jail time as a result ... then you've created a martyr who is being punished for taking a stand on principle.
Do not delude yourself. This would be a giant distraction from the good work that everyone wants the Royal Commission to accomplish. It would not serve the interests of past and present victims of child abuse by Catholic priests. Don't misunderstand me. I wish the forthcoming Royal Commission every success and I want to see it armed with all the powers and resources that it needs. I want the grandstanders like Barnaby Joyce and Christopher Pyne to butt out and STFU and I want the media - just this once! - to inform rather than inflame. But the controversy over the "seal of confession" is a red herring that the issue does not need.
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Post by zombie on Nov 17, 2012 10:24:02 GMT 11
There is no question there are priest who have found a calling and are genuine people, one cannot be to sure they are a majority people who join the church though.
It has been a long while since and priest has been jailed for withholding information in the confessional, true some priest have even died maintaining their oath, I'm sure in Australia the police do not chase that avenue and unlikely any martyrs will be a issue the church will have to contend with.
The celebrate factor that was not always a church thing, not sure perhaps Pope Clement introduce that one, but since its introduction it has attracted somewhat mentally ill people to the church for those seeking salvation for their guilty conscience and thoughts, just as mentally ill people will find god as a release. Not that all believers are nuts...religion does attract that demographic.
The confessional is there for people to seek redemption for their sins, and there are ways a priest on hearing a confession can lead the sinner to seek a path to redeeming their sins, ...its not so much 'I have sinned father' and a "ok my son ten hail mary's and you'll be right' for serious criminal behavior. A priest or father as the case maybe on hearing a serious crime can seek advice from a higher church member..the cardinal or the pope, who then often as the case maybe moves that priest on, to a vocation away from kids.
What the issue is here is the criminal behavior of the church in stalling on legal action with high end lawyers so they do not have to pay for damages, and hiding offending priest, such as telling the police the offender has moved overseas and cannot be found, when the offenders are still in the country.
Knowing, stalling on legal proceedings and lying is criminal behavior...the Church is acting like the mafia, which is very wrong indeed.. well in my book it is.
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Post by geopol on Nov 17, 2012 13:41:39 GMT 11
I say, once again: look at what the Irish did and Ireland is purportedly a much more catholic country than Australia. Such change would not interfere with the rites and duties of sincere priests and would not bring the church to its knees or open it to all sorts of ignomies at the behest of irate athiests. You are becoming as precious, but I hope not so devious as Pell himself! I am sure many priests would not obey the law if it were introduced, but they would or certainly should, know that they themselves were braeking a law if they did not comply...The Church has, I most humbly submit, usurped too much power in this country...
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Post by geopol on Nov 18, 2012 10:26:58 GMT 11
"It is not sectarianism that puts the Catholic Church at the forefront of any investigation. As father Kevin Dillon from St Mary’s Parish in Geelong told the 7.30 Report:
" 'Certainly there’s no doubt that this goes across different organisations and different denominations and within the wider community. But there’s also no denying that we’re the clubhouse leaders by far and that pains me to say that, but we can’t run away from that. That’s the facts of the case and some of the details of events that are emerging, say within the Victorian parliamentary inquiry, are – they’re more than disturbing, they’re horrific'."
From the blog. en passant.
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Post by geopol on Nov 19, 2012 13:41:20 GMT 11
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Post by geopol on Nov 20, 2012 9:43:31 GMT 11
More legal pressure on the catholic church:http://www.smh.com.au/national/victims-to-be-able-to-sue-church-20121119-29mdn.html
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Post by zombie on Nov 20, 2012 13:23:08 GMT 11
Pim seems to have gone into hiding....??
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Post by geopol on Nov 20, 2012 15:26:28 GMT 11
He may have gone on a holiday...I think he often does. I am sure he would not have been put off by the directnes of my criticism of the catholic church and George Pell, after all, he himself has said that the royal commission is justifed.
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Post by geopol on Nov 20, 2012 16:46:20 GMT 11
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Post by zombie on Nov 20, 2012 19:30:25 GMT 11
Off to see his Grandkids perhaps, a mysterious chap at tmes..  Latest article is stating what Is aid earlier that the church is acting like the mafiaso.....the church is even more mysterious than ol' Pim..  |
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Post by geopol on Nov 21, 2012 6:29:23 GMT 11
I suppose one could say the church is mysterious, which I think is something of an understatement. From my perspective it would be more realistic to signify the church as self serving and lacking in empathy, or, indeed, compassion!
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Post by geopol on Nov 23, 2012 9:13:52 GMT 11
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