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Post by geopol on Nov 23, 2012 9:17:07 GMT 11
Some more food for thought:http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/sexual-abuse-crisis-threatens-the-very-foundations-of-catholicism-20121122-29sqg.html
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Post by geopol on Nov 23, 2012 16:48:13 GMT 11
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pim
Full Member
It's still Bertrand Russell's atheist teapot!!
Posts: 180
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Post by pim on Nov 24, 2012 8:23:29 GMT 11
Pim seems to have gone into hiding....?? Pim has been travelling interstate. I drove Adelaide- Melbourne for my grand daughter's 1st b'day, and had some family time. I then drove to the Victorian high country to spend a few days with a buddy of mine who's retired to Bright. There's a lot of scenic stuff around there that I hadn't seen before: Falls Creek, Mt Hotham, Mt Beauty. For my latest trick I spent yesterday driving via the Vic high country to Corryong on the Vic/NSW border, thence into NSW on the Alpine way via Khancoban, Thredbo, Jindabyne to Cooma and then up to Canberra where I'm currently ensconsed with other daughter and my grandson. My son-in-law has acquired a new Harley Davidson so that occasioned a lot of blokey chit chat lubricated by too much of the amber fluid. I'm now slightly hung over and wondering if I can really force down the bacon & eggs that's on offer. But the coffee is very welcome. There's a spate of socialising that I have to do in my old home town which is Australia's bush capital of the world and then it's back to Adelaide via Dubbo and Broken Hill. That'll take a few days. I should get back on or around Dec 6. So no I haven't gone into hiding. I've just been out and about and having a good time  |
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Earl Grey
Full Member
My cup of tea
Posts: 234
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Post by Earl Grey on Nov 24, 2012 9:02:56 GMT 11
If you have time, and/or the inclination...Dubbo Pottery may be worth a look.  Happy travels. |
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Post by zombie on Nov 24, 2012 9:13:35 GMT 11
Good to see your out and about Pim exploring the countryside...I am currently up at Warwick Qld to see a new grandson...nice country the Granite Belt...wineries , fruit trees...pretty towns..etc.
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pim
Full Member
It's still Bertrand Russell's atheist teapot!!
Posts: 180
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Post by pim on Nov 24, 2012 9:16:39 GMT 11
There is no question there are priest who have found a calling and are genuine people, one cannot be to sure they are a majority people who join the church though. I can't accept that. Any more than I can accept - to plagiarise you just a little, Zombie - that "there is no question that there are police officers who have found a calling and are genuine people, (but) one cannot be sure that they are a majority (of) people who join the police force". Substitute "teachers". Substitute any calling you like. Politicians! I agree there are corrupt and mendacious politicians, but I don't accept they are the majority. I'm not denying the appalling horrors that have been exposed regarding child abuse by clergy. Nor am I attempting to minimise it. In fact I regard this issue as the gravest moral crisis facing Christianity since the Inquisition burned heretics and witches at the stake. The horrible fact is that there are large numbers of clergy who have used the Church as a club-for-paedophiles. But that doesn't mean that the Church is of itself a club-for-paedophiles. What do you mean "a long while"? To my knowledge, apart from in totalitarian dictatorships with their secret police and torture chambers, no priest has ever been jailed for witholding from a court information gained from hearing confessions. To the best of my knowledge the Crimes Act specifically mentions religious contexts such as confession as privileged. Are you suggesting that Parliament amends the Crimes Act? That would be interesting!!! And I mean that with all the irony I can summon up! You're right. The police do not "chase that avenue". See above. Nope! I don't agree that priestly celibacy attracts nutjobs to the priesthood. And I do not accept that celibacy is the "smoking gun". A paedophile is a paedophile whether he has a wife or whether he's single. If you don't believe me just look at the case studies that detail the number of married men who abuse kids. I agree that priestly celibacy is an issue within the Church but it's a separate issue from child abuse. Or rather - yes I agree - it's linked to child abuse but only in the sense that everything is linked to child abuse. I don't want to go any further on priestly celibacy because it's a huge topic in itself. It's hard to discuss this with someone whose views are informed by anti-clericalism because they tend to dismiss any considerations of spirituality and the quest for grace. To "take the cloth" is supposed first and foremost to be a quest for grace and the spirit. This isn't about what you as an atheist might think. Or me as an agnostic. This is about the starting point for someone who believes he has a vocation and is called to the religious life. Celibacy can be a path to exploring one's spirituality and to obtaining grace. Isn't the Dalai Lama celibate? Doesn't he embody the best in asceticism? Isn't his celibacy a part of that? Does that make the Dalai Lama a kiddy fiddler? Are you referring to the priest hearing the confession? You're not making yourself clear. I think in your last sentence you're referring not to ther person hearing the confession but the person making the confession. At least I'll assume that's what you mean. Alas, Zombie, paedophile priests do not get moved away from kids. This is one of the factors - and only one, there are lots more - for which the Church stands condemned and disgraced. I'm not a priest and I've never had to confess to a serious crime like murder or paedophilia. And for that I thank God. Seriously! I don't know what a priest would do if he heard a confession where someone confessed to a serious crime. Have you heard of Frank Brennan? You should have! He's a Jesuit who has been outspoken for years on human rights issues, and has been a thorn in the side of governments of both persuasions. I tend to sit up and listen when Brennan speaks. He says that if a priest hears a confession in which a criminal act is confessed, he would make absolution contingent on the person turning himself in to the police and answering for his crime tothe civil authorities. Sounds authentic to me and perfectly consistent with John 20:23 I agree! The issue here is indeed the criminal behaviour of the Church in stalling on legal action and in their cover ups. You'll get no argument from me on that one! And that's a separate issue altogether from the seal of confession. What we want is criminals among the clergy to be exposed for what they are and to be named, shamed and jailed for raping kids. What we don't want is to jail priests for remaining true to their priestly vows. If we start making martyrs of priests then we make a gift to the paedophiles among them of just the distraction they've been looking for. |
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Post by geopol on Nov 24, 2012 10:05:06 GMT 11
What we want is the cleaning up of the past in relation to child abuse by members of the churches and other organisaations, an end too, to the sleazy practice of at least one religious body seeking, it appears, to uphold its own view of itself rather than helping innocent victims of broken men.
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pim
Full Member
It's still Bertrand Russell's atheist teapot!!
Posts: 180
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Post by pim on Nov 24, 2012 10:33:43 GMT 11
All of the above, geopol. But in achieving this worthy objective we want to catch criminals and expose corrupt and criminal sub-cultures. What we don't want is religious martyrs. I'll go on arguing this.
I believe this issue to be the gravest spiritual and moral crisis facing Christianity since the Reformation. In fact I'd say Christianity is due for another Reformation. A good Reformation every 500 years or so cleans out the cockroaches.
I'm not interested in anti-clericalism and it disturbs me that from certain quarters this issue, which cries out to God for justice (read Matt 18:6 for what Jesus himself said about child abusers) is being appropriated to further an anti-clerical agenda. Stuff that. I've no time for it. This is about protecting kids from people who want to rape them.
I have to go!!
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Post by geopol on Nov 24, 2012 11:15:46 GMT 11
I am bit of an anti clerical myself, in the best sense of the term of course. I am not much of a fan of the churches, but I have a high appreciation of ceremony, prayer and the music and even the preaching of the gospel associated with religious expression. It is the corrution that has come with power than excites my ire, as it does in other instutions that think they are sponsored by a higher power...
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Post by geopol on Nov 27, 2012 10:43:05 GMT 11
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Post by zombie on Nov 27, 2012 18:04:47 GMT 11
Its not weird as so much, for the church it was standard practice with child abuse it was simply handled with a blind eye to what was going on...the children didn't matter or were even considered.
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Post by geopol on Nov 28, 2012 6:25:14 GMT 11
Yes Spin.... the church is the reason for its own exitence, it above all must survive and prosper, no matter the cost, which has been the guiding light at least from the Vikings to the Nazis ans even to this day. The church over al those centuries has enriched and empowered itself at the expense of people and even countries. Celibacy itself is a policy designed to help the church gain and maitain property and wealth and I believe is the main reason why it is held onto with such vigour, depite the claim that it makes for better priests, which we know is simpl a lie.
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Post by geopol on Nov 29, 2012 6:33:19 GMT 11
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